How do you compassionately tell a supernatural believing person that they are borderline stupid?

[Greatest I am]

How do you compassionately tell a supernatural believing person that they are borderline stupid?

As you can see by my title, I do not know how.

Scriptures say that to correct is a sign of love. Proverbs 3:12 For whom the Lord loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth.

Most do not see it that way when on the receiving end of that love.

I see correction as love just as the scriptures do. How do you see it and how would you tell a supernatural believing person that they are borderline stupid?

Regards
DL

[sohy]

Why do you think it's helpful to tell anyone that they are stupid? Smart people sometimes believe things that we may think are stupid, but I promise you there is no nice way to tell someone that they are stupid, or almost stupid.

If you must engage believers in debates about theism, I suggest that you simply explain why you find their beliefs to be untrue. Most aren't going to change, but a few might at least think over what you've said. I think most of us find our own pathways to atheism. I know I did it without ever meeting anyone who claimed to be an atheist. Most people are going to believe what they want to be true, when it comes to religion and politics. Maybe that's why when I was growing up, it was considered rude to discuss politics or religion.

[Greatest I am]

[quote=""sohy""]Why do you think it's helpful to tell anyone that they are stupid? Smart people sometimes believe things that we may think are stupid, but I promise you there is no nice way to tell someone that they are stupid, or almost stupid.

If you must engage believers in debates about theism, I suggest that you simply explain why you find their beliefs to be untrue. Most aren't going to change, but a few might at least think over what you've said. I think most of us find our own pathways to atheism. I know I did it without ever meeting anyone who claimed to be an atheist. Most people are going to believe what they want to be true, when it comes to religion and politics. Maybe that's why when I was growing up, it was considered rude to discuss politics or religion.[/quote]

Obviously I do not think it helpful to tell anyone that they are stupid. That is why I wrote the O.P.

You offer no solution to theists hiding behind their supernatural screens where debate is mostly impossible.

To allow such people to go uncorrected even to the point of using tough love would not be us doing unto others as correction is the loving thing to do.

I am just looking for an appropriate phrase to us to correct their poor thinking.

Regards
DL

[Koyaanisqatsi]

The problem is that you’re dealing with cult inculcation, not intelligence. Some of the smartest people in history have nevertheless been theists and that’s because they have been brainwashed (for lack of a better term) since birth, so it’s a different animal.

You have to think in terms of deprogramming.

[Greatest I am]

[quote=""Koyaanisqatsi""]The problem is that you’re dealing with cult inculcation, not intelligence. Some of the smartest people in history have nevertheless been theists and that’s because they have been brainwashed (for lack of a better term) since birth, so it’s a different animal.

You have to think in terms of deprogramming.[/quote]

That is what is required for sure but theists do not usually chat long enough to really take in the deprogramming.

Their programming includes words like this.

Martin Luther.
“Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding.”
“Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has.”

http://imgur.com/IBroXK9

It is hard to get theists to reason when they are told not to do so by their controlers.

Regards
DL

[dancer_rnb]

Just wait until some theist decides to deprogram you.

[Koyaanisqatsi]

[quote=""dancer_rnb""]Just wait until some theist decides to deprogram you.[/quote]

Category error.

[Koyaanisqatsi]

[quote=""Greatest I am""]

The problem is that you’re dealing with cult inculcation, not intelligence. Some of the smartest people in history have nevertheless been theists and that’s because they have been brainwashed (for lack of a better term) since birth, so it’s a different animal.

You have to think in terms of deprogramming.

That is what is required for sure but theists do not usually chat long enough to really take in the deprogramming.

Their programming includes words like this.

Martin Luther.
“Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding.”
“Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has.”

http://imgur.com/IBroXK9

It is hard to get theists to reason when they are told not to do so by their controlers.[/quote]

True, but cult programming alters the hardware, not the software. Brains are rewired, so to speak, such that a “1” is read as a “0.” That’s why they always try to use the tool of reason/logic—in spite of the fact that their beliefs are deliberately and inherently irrational—but always fail. They are using the tool, it is just that they look at black and see it as white, so no matter how hard they try to process anything it always ends up wrong. That or they misuse the tool by assuming the conclusion and work backwards.

Either way, they are still using the tool and that’s why it’s so difficult to deprogram someone from a cult. Cult members just don’t know what the tool is for because their conclusions have already been programmed in, so the tool can’t ever work properly for them. The conclusion MUST always be set as a starting assumption.

[Greatest I am]

[quote=""dancer_rnb""]Just wait until some theist decides to deprogram you.

[/quote]

Many have tried but all they end up saying is that I have to have ----

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Cs3Pvmmv0E

and quote me these.

Martin Luther did.
“Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding.”
“Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has.”

http://imgur.com/IBroXK9

Regards
DL

[Greatest I am]

[quote=""Koyaanisqatsi""]

The problem is that you’re dealing with cult inculcation, not intelligence. Some of the smartest people in history have nevertheless been theists and that’s because they have been brainwashed (for lack of a better term) since birth, so it’s a different animal.

You have to think in terms of deprogramming.

That is what is required for sure but theists do not usually chat long enough to really take in the deprogramming.

Their programming includes words like this.

Martin Luther.
“Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding.”
“Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has.”

http://imgur.com/IBroXK9

It is hard to get theists to reason when they are told not to do so by their controlers.

True, but cult programming alters the hardware, not the software. Brains are rewired, so to speak, such that a “1” is read as a “0.” That’s why they always try to use the tool of reason/logic—in spite of the fact that their beliefs are deliberately and inherently irrational—but always fail. They are using the tool, it is just that they look at black and see it as white, so no matter how hard they try to process anything it always ends up wrong. That or they misuse the tool by assuming the conclusion and work backwards.

Either way, they are still using the tool and that’s why it’s so difficult to deprogram someone from a cult. Cult members just don’t know what the tool is for because their conclusions have already been programmed in, so the tool can’t ever work properly for them. The conclusion MUST always be set as a starting assumption.[/QUOTE]

I hear you. If a theist puts his cult ahead of his intelligent thinking, logic and reason, then only professionals are likely able to de-program him.

Fellowship and tribal needs that cause the initial need of a religion is a strong part of our instincts and the victim of programming has a real need for a new tribe. Getting him or her to switch is a tough go especially if he does not know what is motivating him or her to be in their cults.

Regards
DL

[Ozymandias]

[quote=""Greatest I am""]How do you compassionately tell a supernatural believing person that they are borderline stupid?
[/quote]

I am 100% certain that I personally know "supernatural believing people" who are smarter than you. What should that tell us?

[Greatest I am]

[quote=""Ozymandias""]

How do you compassionately tell a supernatural believing person that they are borderline stupid?

I am 100% certain that I personally know "supernatural believing people" who are smarter than you. What should that tell us?[/QUOTE]

Educated, yes. Smarter, no. There is a difference you know. I*f you are smart that is.

But to your comment. If they continue to think as they do, they are an example of what this link ends with.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjxZ6Mr ... re=related

Regards
DL

[Koyaanisqatsi]

[quote=""Ozymandias""]

How do you compassionately tell a supernatural believing person that they are borderline stupid?

I am 100% certain that I personally know "supernatural believing people" who are smarter than you. What should that tell us?[/QUOTE]

That cult programming is insidious and can work on anyone. Iow, just more evidence that it should be eliminated.

[Ozymandias]

[quote=""Greatest I am""]
Educated, yes. Smarter, no. There is a difference you know. I*f you are smart that is.
[/quote]

Sorry, I don't mean to be offensive, but that is also clearly not true.

The only way you can think this to be true is by having a very selective definition of "smart". Presumably you are claiming that disbelief in the "supernatural" is a necessary condition for the qualifier "smart"? If that is the case, then your statement cannot be argued against, but it becomes pretty meaningless. Indeed, a religious person may claim that belief in God is a necessary condition for the qualifier "smart", and then you will just talk past each other, each in you own little bubble of smugness.

Most people use the word "smart" as meaning having a quick mind. Being able to make logical deductions and solve problems in ways other people might not see. As I said before, I personally know top-tier scientists who are incredibly smart but have religious beliefs. These are the sort of people who can sit in the audience of a highly technical scientific seminar a reasonable distance from their own speciality and instantly point out flaws in the reasoning.

[Jobar]

It's prudent to keep in mind that no matter how much we know, we're still a near-instantaneous tiny dot on a tiny dot. There's more we don't know, than that we know.

I've posted this link many times before, GIA. It's some of the best advice on dealing with religious people I know of.
Why Bad Beliefs Don't Die

Also check out Skills for talking to believers.

[Jobar]

In particular-
Don't Call Religious Believers Stupid (Tip 1 of 10 For Reaching Out To Religious Believers)

[Politesse]

There's a funny thing about calling someone else stupid.

It tends to make you look stupid.

Have you ever seen someone call someone else "stupid", and you immediately thought "wow, that guy must be smart, he thinks that other guy is dumb!"

[Politesse]

[quote=""Jobar""]In particular-
Don't Call Religious Believers Stupid (Tip 1 of 10 For Reaching Out To Religious Believers)[/quote]

Thanks for the link, Jobar, that was an interesting read! Includes a lot of my personal pet peeves, and it is nice to see that someone else realizes it!

[Jobar]

I think it was David B that first linked me to Camels with Hammers' blog. I haven't read all his stuff by any means, but I almost always enjoy his work, and agree with his opinions.

[Greatest I am]

[quote=""Ozymandias""]

Educated, yes. Smarter, no. There is a difference you know. I*f you are smart that is.

Sorry, I don't mean to be offensive, but that is also clearly not true.

The only way you can think this to be true is by having a very selective definition of "smart". Presumably you are claiming that disbelief in the "supernatural" is a necessary condition for the qualifier "smart"? If that is the case, then your statement cannot be argued against, but it becomes pretty meaningless. Indeed, a religious person may claim that belief in God is a necessary condition for the qualifier "smart", and then you will just talk past each other, each in you own little bubble of smugness.

Most people use the word "smart" as meaning having a quick mind. Being able to make logical deductions and solve problems in ways other people might not see. As I said before, I personally know top-tier scientists who are incredibly smart but have religious beliefs. These are the sort of people who can sit in the audience of a highly technical scientific seminar a reasonable distance from their own speciality and instantly point out flaws in the reasoning.[/QUOTE]

Being smart, and I like your "as meaning having a quick mind", eliminated those who believe in the supernatural.

Those who believe in the supernatural are gullible to a high degree and have dull minds more than quick minds. IMO.

God did it is one of the stupidest things anyone can say as it is a lie as they can never prove their case. Dull and dim minds say such a lie.

Regards
DL

[Greatest I am]

[quote=""Jobar""]It's prudent to keep in mind that no matter how much we know, we're still a near-instantaneous tiny dot on a tiny dot. There's more we don't know, than that we know.

I've posted this link many times before, GIA. It's some of the best advice on dealing with religious people I know of.
Why Bad Beliefs Don't Die

Also check out Skills for talking to believers.[/quote]

I agree that we know little of the full scope of knowledge.

When we answer one question, we end in opening up 10 more.

Thanks for those links. I will get to then in a few minutes.

Regards
DL

[Jobar]

(View video on YouTube)

[Politesse]

You realize the same could be said of any fragment of knowledge, yes? Obviously intelligence does not make you immune to being wrong. That does not make any particular claim right or wrong... :d unno:

[Koyaanisqatsi]

[quote=""Jobar""]In particular-
Don't Call Religious Believers Stupid (Tip 1 of 10 For Reaching Out To Religious Believers)[/quote]
Nice, but I found this companion piece he wrote even more revealing: Top 10 Tips For Reaching Out To Atheists.

The picture he paints indirectly of the average theist we have all dealt with so many times it’s depressing through the many different types of assumptions and questions they ask atheists is pretty much a textbook profile of a cult member. For example:

2. Do not lie.
...
Try to persuade us, if you like, but do not try to manipulate us in any way whatsoever. Either reason with us like adults and equals or leave us alone. Do not befriend us with ulterior motives of saving us when you do not really like us, do not try to subvert our reason by appealing to our hopes and fears, do not threaten us with damnation, etc. Do not claim that you have no intentions of changing our minds when you do have intentions of changing our minds. Do not claim not to judge us when you in fact do judge us. Do not make arguments that you already know can be reasonably refuted. Do not raise evidence you know is misleading. And do not try to appeal to our emotions where your reasons fail since doing so is underhanded and dishonest.

If you cannot persuade us with reason to believe, then you have no reason to believe and we will have no reason to believe. If you cannot persuade us with the truth, then you do not believe the truth and those who are interested in the truth will not believe you.

I literally can’t count the number of times I’ve dealt with this irl and on boards like this one. But what is the psychology involved in such duplicity?

Same here:

3. Do not assume you are either morally better, spiritually more attuned, or happier than we are simply because you belong to your faith.
...
Do not assume that the only way to be spiritually serious and feel emotionally secure is to be within the faith. You may not believe that it is possible outside the faith, but many of us are living proof it is. Especially if you thought we were spiritually deep before we left the faith, don’t condescend to us by treating us as though we must have suddenly turned shallow, confused, or anguished the moment we left the fold. We didn’t. Expand your mind to appreciate how people outside the faith can and do find meaning too, even if you think our views are somehow mistaken.

Also, on this score, do not assume that only you have beliefs you care about and that we are empty vessels just waiting for some substance from you. Some Christians think that atheists’ values are somehow transient or secondary to their own such that they can force us to go to church or talk to us like we could put aside our views on religion easily to accommodate them. That’s not always true and it is demeaning to be treated like our values are irrelevant or unserious.

And here’s a big one (make note Poli ):

4. If you decide to debate us about God and employ a strategy to convince us, stick with the topic you raise and address our counter-arguments without constantly changing the subject.

One of the most frustrating things theists do is avoid addressing our arguments by just offering a new argument on a different tact. If you feel like your argument was refuted then either find another counter-argument on the same point or at least be big enough to admit outright that you lost that point and will abandon using that argument in the future before trying out another one.

But again, think of the psychology involved in such tactics and how the tactics themselves reveal so much about how deeply entrenched is cult programming.

Once again, it’s brainwashing so how intelligent/smart/educated/ignorant someone is really isn’t at issue. It may help in regard to self-shielding during the childhood indoctrination process—and it definitely helps in the deprogramming process—but this is why cult indoctrination is so insidious. Given the right timing and circumstances, it clearly works on the vast majority of people. It’s 2018 ffs and we still live in a world where 90% of the population believe that magic is real and Santa Clause is watching over them.

This is precisely why it’s all about “suffer the children unto me” and the many many many admonitions to have faith as a child would, etc.

[Greatest I am]

[quote=""Jobar""]
(View video on YouTube)[/quote]

Good find buddy.

Dark Matter does a lot of good works.

Regards
DL