Schadenfreude

[Hermit]

Schadenfreude means deriving joy from someone else's misfortune. So, a rather negative thing.

In today's news I read that Wesley Goodman, a member of the Ohio House of Representatives, was witnessed to have had sex with another man in his office, as a result of which he was compelled to resign. My immediate reaction was . Totally unapologetically so. Am I wrong? What about the children etc?

[Jobar]

Reading that story, I get a feeling of justice done, of hypocrisy exposed.

If Goodman had been living up to his professed right-wing values, even then he would have been willing to deny rights to (other) gays, and women wanting abortions. That, to my mind, makes him an evil man- and thus we are justified in feeling pleasure to see him brought low. Especially in this way.

[justme]

What hits me is profound sadness at what this person has done to himself in self denying what he is by nature. The internal pressures that lead to him repressing his sexuality were the real tragedy and could very well have been what project his inner disgust for what he is into his politics

This is the legacy of the religious right and the enduring effect of shame that pervades those who are indoctrinated into that ideology. I blame organized religion for everything here. His voting record and his dealings with the LGBT community as well. This man was trapped in the prison of his own creation and in that prison he tortured himself everytime he saw someone who appealed to him sexually. What an abysmal life that must have been.

This is akin to a drug addict destroying himself and everyone around him. Very sad. My only hope is that as this is out in the open he can honestly deal with his sexuality and get beyond torturing himself and the world around him.

The ball is in his court and he is free. If he is strong enough with his newfound freedom to embraces himself he will have the chance to make amends for all the damage he has caused to the community. If not he will just be another hypocrite that got caught and will remain rejected by both sides and live in oblivion.

[Hermit]

[quote=""justme""]My only hope is that as this is out in the open he can honestly deal with his sexuality and get beyond torturing himself and the world around him.[/quote]
Optimist. More likely he will emulate those TV evangelists who have been caught out in similar situations by expressing regret about his moment of weakness, reaffirm all the values he has defended in the past and carry on as before.

[Jobar]

Any feelings of pity that Goodman's story might inspire in me are over-ridden by his long-term willingness to persecute others- and his attempts to make that persecution seem like a good and proper thing.

I do agree that the real evil here is religion, specifically Christianity in this case. Or at least, the narrow-minded and intolerant version which Goodman and his ilk preach- but don't practice.

"Religion can be an evil which wears a mask of good." -Jobar

[Hermit]

Turns out the creep has history.

[justme]

[quote=""Jobar""]Any feelings of pity that Goodman's story might inspire in me are over-ridden by his long-term willingness to persecute others- and his attempts to make that persecution seem like a good and proper thing.

I do agree that the real evil here is religion, specifically Christianity in this case. Or at least, the narrow-minded and intolerant version which Goodman and his ilk preach- but don't practice.

"Religion can be an evil which wears a mask of good." -Jobar[/quote]

Good and proper are relevant terms to that which is meaningful to the observer. I remember hearing something about someone saying, Give me a child up until a certain age and I will have him forever. You will be hard pressed to find a truer statement than that. I am living proof of that.

There is a lot to condemn here and much more has been lost by this. the lost ground can never be regained, but the wounds taken in this debacle can be addressed and some good, as I see it can come of this. I know there are more just like him, torturing themselves and everyone around him by this plague of religious interpretation that is at the heart of this matter. There is also the posibility that those with hardened hearts on the right, who liked this man for his personality may just come around to see gay people as they should be, as just as human as the next person

Those people may see this and come to the conclusion that what they are withholding is a far better existence than the reasoning they have for restricting it and come out into the light.

I have heard that organized religion is loosing ground in today's world. This situation right here may be part of the reason for that.

[justme]

[quote=""Hermit""]

My only hope is that as this is out in the open he can honestly deal with his sexuality and get beyond torturing himself and the world around him.

Optimist. More likely he will emulate those TV evangelists who have been caught out in similar situations by expressing regret about his moment of weakness, reaffirm all the values he has defended in the past and carry on as before.[/QUOTE]

He can't change what he desires. My friend, my compassion has it's limits. If he goes that way he deserves what he finds there. Good riddance to him.

[Hermit]

[quote=""justme""]I remember hearing something about someone saying, Give me a child up until a certain age and I will have him forever.[/quote]That resembles "Give me the child for the first seven years and I will give you the man." Attributed to the founder of the Jesuits, Ignatius of Loyola by Voltaire. Not, perhaps, what you had in mind.

[justme]

[quote=""Hermit""]

I remember hearing something about someone saying, Give me a child up until a certain age and I will have him forever.

That resembles "Give me the child for the first seven years and I will give you the man." Attributed to the founder of the Jesuits, Ignatius of Loyola by Voltaire. Not, perhaps, what you had in mind.[/QUOTE]

Thank you. This is probably the statement, but I see the refrance of the man as meaning that he will hold sway over the conciousness of the person to their dying day.

People should be free to explore the feelings they are given and these people are inundated with piecemeal parts of the Bible and personal interpretations of scripture that is beneficial more to power happy clergy than the individual themselves.

The parable of the protigul child speaks to this, when a person goes out to find himsel. In that parable the ending was a certain way, but even if anyone would embrace their individuality and not return home, they should be given that chance, especiall to those within a religious family.

Sometimes people are so afraid that they will loose friends and family that they loose their minds. My question to them would be if their friends walk away just because of what he loves, they weren't friends to begin with.

The politics of this man are abhorrent, but right now he is in no mans land and the right, I bet is having a cow about this. I think against a backdrop of expressions of simmering hate from the right a welcoming outstretch hand from the left might just convince him that the left is not the monsters we they are demonized as and nither is he. He never was, just the way he dealt with his situation.

[Politesse]

Can't find any joy in this. Don't think I'm going to gain any rights because once again one of these guys turns out to have an "illicit" habit, it has happened before and will happen again. He'll be blacklisted, and those who believe this is a perversion will treat it like a politician who's been caught embezzling or killing someone. All of which promotes the portrayal of homosexuality as a dangerous illness that must be expunged from society.

[plebian]

I think it's probably better systemically for personal chill as well as social cohesion to try to reframe when that emotion comes up. Even though Moore is not someone whose character tendencies and rap sheet enamor him to me, to put it diplomatically, I can make statements expressing positive support for my own ideals rather than denigrating his. I can express my preference for different leadership too. That allows me the chill of letting the world be what it is without letting the state of affairs harsh my mellow so much but still grants me the ability to work for what I see as positive change even or maybe especially when that work requires risk and effort.

The serenity prayer is actually pretty profound I think.

[justme]

When anyone tries to bask in another person's misery it is never justice, but revenge. To seek that is to try and fill a container with emptiness. Revenge is an empty promise of satisfaction that satiates nothing.

[Hermit]

[quote=""justme""]When anyone tries to bask in another person's misery it is never justice, but revenge.[/quote]Schadenfreude is certainly not about justice. It is not about revenge either. For me at least, it is the joy of seeing someone not being able to adhere to a despicable principle or ideal he or she promotes and advocates. So, in the case of Charles Manson there is no Schadenfreude. He was not breaking any rules he held dear. As for Al Franken, no Schadenfreude either, this time because a desirable principle or ideal was transgressed. That is a source of pity rather than joy.

[Jobar]

[quote=""Politesse""]Can't find any joy in this. Don't think I'm going to gain any rights because once again one of these guys turns out to have an "illicit" habit, it has happened before and will happen again. He'll be blacklisted, and those who believe this is a perversion will treat it like a politician who's been caught embezzling or killing someone. All of which promotes the portrayal of homosexuality as a dangerous illness that must be expunged from society.[/quote]

I think it's the ones who 'portray homosexuality as a dangerous illness' that are being discommoded, here. Their leading light has been extinguished, their golden boy tarnished- and in such a way that might even cause them to have a few doubts about the justness of their own opinion and politics.

Schadenfreude is joy in others' misfortune, and I definitely believe there are people who deserve misfortune. The human tendency to fuckups and wickedness is a bad thing, no question. But seeing the wicked bring karma down upon themselves, especially in such a plainly deserved way, gives me a sense of satisfaction; every once in a while, there *is* justice.

[justme]

[quote=""Jobar""]

Can't find any joy in this. Don't think I'm going to gain any rights because once again one of these guys turns out to have an "illicit" habit, it has happened before and will happen again. He'll be blacklisted, and those who believe this is a perversion will treat it like a politician who's been caught embezzling or killing someone. All of which promotes the portrayal of homosexuality as a dangerous illness that must be expunged from society.

I think it's the ones who 'portray homosexuality as a dangerous illness' that are being discommoded, here. Their leading light has been extinguished, their golden boy tarnished- and in such a way that might even cause them to have a few doubts about the justness of their own opinion and politics.

Schadenfreude is joy in others' misfortune, and I definitely believe there are people who deserve misfortune. The human tendency to fuckups and wickedness is a bad thing, no question. But seeing the wicked bring karma down upon themselves, especially in such a plainly deserved way, gives me a sense of satisfaction; every once in a while, there *is* justice.[/QUOTE]

Justice would only come if this man embraces his feelings, openly apologizes for his actions and makes amends for the harm he has done.

I think you mean karma, which to me is whatever goes around, comes around.
This to me means a continual loop of degradation, which has probably been repeating itself over and over for a millennia. tit for tat, tat for tit leaving a line of completely destried individuals in it's wake.

What I think is the destruction of these people didn't begin when they were caught but when they came to the conclusion that repressing and the systematic dismantling of his true self. That in itself, i think has created a darker person than would have been if he was just a heterosexual and stood against gay rights.

When you don't love yourself you'll not let anyone else love you and you push those who share your passion away, because you are so revolted with the feelings you've repress and begin to hate those who find the courage to express theirs.

If anyone says they rejoice in the misery of this man, I would say you are decades too late in doing so, because the misery of this person started when the fear of being unacceptable to those around him crushed the very thing that made him so unique in the world he found himself in.

There was no up side to this until the day he was revealed and in that day he finaly had the chance to break out of the prison of guilt he encased himself in, spread his wings and fly without bondage for probably the first time in his entire life.

He needs to apologize to himself far more than he needs to apologize to those he hurt, since he has hurt himself by his own cowardice far longer than he has been politically active. This in itself will begin the healing of the most important person in his life, himself. Without that healing he can never truly understand the enormity of damage he has done to everyone around him and give himself a chance to openly find out who his real friends are and who is just their because they approved of the the lie he has been living for so long.

I think the worst evil in the world came to power when the evangelistic leadership came to the conclusion that they had common ground with the conservative movement. Conservatives in my understanding have absolutely nothing to do with religion, but with iron grip control of everything around them. What they gained from the evangelistic is the illusion of divine providence.

[Hermit]

[quote=""justme""]Justice would only come if this man embraces his feelings, openly apologizes for his actions and makes amends for the harm he has done.[/quote]
No. You're talking about atonement now. Justice would be for Wesley Goodman to have a broomstick wrapped in garnet paper shoved up his arse until it tickles his tonsils. In public.

[dancer_rnb]

His harm to himself is no worse than his harm of others.
And most conservatives have always wanted to preserve religions power.

[Politesse]

[quote=""Jobar""]I think it's the ones who 'portray homosexuality as a dangerous illness' that are being discommoded, here. Their leading light has been extinguished, their golden boy tarnished- and in such a way that might even cause them to have a few doubts about the justness of their own opinion and politics. [/quote]I think that this is extremely unlikely. Aside from the schadenfreude of the Left, have you heard anyone talking about this at all? It will be swept under the rug, a grim warning to all that homosexuality could strike anyone, at any time.

[justme]

[quote=""Hermit""]

Justice would only come if this man embraces his feelings, openly apologizes for his actions and makes amends for the harm he has done.

No. You're talking about atonement now. Justice would be for Wesley Goodman to have a broomstick wrapped in garnet paper shoved up his arse until it tickles his tonsils. In public.[/QUOTE]

my understanding of justice is that which will reimburse those who have been wronged for whatever looses they have endured. We have, in the US whole cities of people incarcerated because of the idea that punishment is far better than the act of penitence which is the effort honestly put forth. At least then those wronged will get double satisfaction of being vindicated and seeing a former irritant become a Allie that may just be able to pull more people towards if not absolute acceptance, at least tolerance of our side.

The ideology which destroyed the life of this person is alive and well, as is the social pressures that created i. We are at the tipping point of public opinion that is in our favor and those who stand in our way only have fear and religious interpretation acting in their favor. Not all who are Christian are against the lgbt community and most of the remainder of the country just want the drama to end.

They couldn't care one way or the other, just as long as they aren't preached to by either side. The right is their own worst enemy in this because all they can do is preach. We can show results that the fear mongers can not.

This man here may just be one example of that results we can showcase. That can't happen if we dance on his grave, for things he has done that punishment can't repair.

I'm a progressive and don't give a crap about snearing or being sneared at. I'm not in this for the politics or to get a massive hardon when my opponents shoot themselves in their proverbial foot. The feelings that brings up are both self satisfying and fleeting. They serve no more importance than to give somebody a warn feeling that doesn't change anyone else's heart or mind.

That is what we need to change what was a gay issue into a human issue. The more people who think of it in that light the less they will listen to those who are counting on their ability to shame others to control them.

[justme]

[quote=""dancer_rnb""]His harm to himself is no worse than his harm of others.
And most conservatives have always wanted to preserve religions power.[/quote]

They want to preserve their power. They just see religion as a tool in which to preserve that. The Catholics have been running on that for 2000 years, so they know it works or has worked.

What he has done to others has only done since he acquired the ability to effect them, which is the day he became a politican. What he has done to himself was he has done since he began feeling attraction toward men.

[justme]

[quote=""Politesse""]

I think it's the ones who 'portray homosexuality as a dangerous illness' that are being discommoded, here. Their leading light has been extinguished, their golden boy tarnished- and in such a way that might even cause them to have a few doubts about the justness of their own opinion and politics.

I think that this is extremely unlikely. Aside from the schadenfreude of the Left, have you heard anyone talking about this at all? It will be swept under the rug, a grim warning to all that homosexuality could strike anyone, at any time.[/QUOTE]

You are forgetting the fact that these people you are talking about always has the Devil to throw at any failure withing their community. The idea of free will seems to evade them when it doesn't work in their favor.

What will turn the page on all of this will not come from the left, but from the rights inability to mount a compelling argument without fear mongering.

"Always been," has never been any kind of an arguement and more and more people are beginning to realize this.

[dancer_rnb]

[quote=""justme""]

His harm to himself is no worse than his harm of others.
And most conservatives have always wanted to preserve religions power.

They want to preserve their power. They just see religion as a tool in which to preserve that. The Catholics have been running on that for 2000 years, so they know it works or has worked.

What he has done to others has only done since he acquired the ability to effect them, which is the day he became a politican. What he has done to himself was he has done since he began feeling attraction toward men.[/QUOTE]

I disagree. His becoming a politician increased his ability to do harm. He could still do harm before then in how he treated others. Most homophobes or racists are not politicians. But their actions in total does have an effect.

[Jobar]

[quote=""Politesse""]

I think it's the ones who 'portray homosexuality as a dangerous illness' that are being discommoded, here. Their leading light has been extinguished, their golden boy tarnished- and in such a way that might even cause them to have a few doubts about the justness of their own opinion and politics.

I think that this is extremely unlikely. Aside from the schadenfreude of the Left, have you heard anyone talking about this at all? It will be swept under the rug, a grim warning to all that homosexuality could strike anyone, at any time.[/QUOTE]

Googling 'Wes Goodman' returns links to CNN, Fox, NY Times, Wiki- a whole long list. All of them seem to be talking about this incident, and his resignation. I haven't checked on any conservative discussion boards, but I'd be willing to bet long odds that they're talking about it too. I expect it will quiet down in less than two weeks, but it won't be forgotten.

Whether Goodman's exposure will change any minds, sadly I agree that there won't be many. But I expect that his hypocrisy will wind up doing the cause of gay rights more good than harm.

If anyone says they rejoice in the misery of this man, I would say you are decades too late in doing so, because the misery of this person started when the fear of being unacceptable to those around him crushed the very thing that made him so unique in the world he found himself in.

There was no up side to this until the day he was revealed and in that day he finaly had the chance to break out of the prison of guilt he encased himself in, spread his wings and fly without bondage for probably the first time in his entire life.

He needs to apologize to himself far more than he needs to apologize to those he hurt, since he has hurt himself by his own cowardice far longer than he has been politically active. This in itself will begin the healing of the most important person in his life, himself. Without that healing he can never truly understand the enormity of damage he has done to everyone around him and give himself a chance to openly find out who his real friends are and who is just their because they approved of the the lie he has been living for so long.

It would be nice to think this episode would enable him to 'break out of the prison of guilt'- but I fear it's far more likely that his denial and self-hatred will only be reinforced by it. Divorce, loss of all his friends, expulsion from his church- even suicide- is what I see as his most probable fate.

Some Wiccans believe in the Rule of Three, AKA the 'Law of Threefold Return'. It says that whatsoever you do to others, for good or for ill, shall eventually be given back to you three times over. I'm sure that most witches would see this as an excellent example of it.

[justme]

[quote=""dancer_rnb""]

His harm to himself is no worse than his harm of others.
And most conservatives have always wanted to preserve religions power.

They want to preserve their power. They just see religion as a tool in which to preserve that. The Catholics have been running on that for 2000 years, so they know it works or has worked.

What he has done to others has only done since he acquired the ability to effect them, which is the day he became a politican. What he has done to himself was he has done since he began feeling attraction toward men.

I disagree. His becoming a politician increased his ability to do harm. He could still do harm before then in how he treated others. Most homophobes or racists are not politicians. But their actions in total does have an effect.[/QUOTE]

Treating people unkindly can only be done if those around him would allow it. That's how bullies have worked since the dawn of time and will be that way until it ends, or we end.

What truly matters is not what they do to people, but how what they do effects those who see what they do to others. Do they embrace the bully or do they sympathize with the bullies target? If they don't interfere directly, will they support the victims where it counts, in the ballet box ?

This is a war of public opinion and needs to be thought of that way, because public opinion will have the final say on ever issue imaginable. Issues are faceless amorphous ideals that are settled on a personal level with individuals.

Once they loose the public all they can do is preach to the choir and that is what needs to happen.