living in jeebusland

[Jackrabbit]

[quote=""Jobar""]
I've known and talked to atheists that hate the religious. Who would go so far as to repeal the US First Amendment, and persecute priests of all faiths for fraud. Not just secular, but actively anti-religious.

That sort are more rare, and less voluble, than are believers who would really like to see a new Inquisition of some sort, complete with public hangings and burnings of atheists. But they do exist.
[/quote]
Oh, I don't doubt it. There are fanatics about pretty much anything, including Pokemon and Star Wars.

As to discussions with believers- I have known a few, IRL and online, that seem to honestly enjoy religious disputation with an unbeliever, and can carry on such disputes civilly. But not many.

Like everybody on CF. Not.

I enjoy deep discussion, and argument done in ways that may change my mind in beneficial ways- or which might so benefit my interlocutor. Dispute is worthwhile if there's some chance someone gets educated or enlightened. So I regret how hard it is to talk to most believers about these things. I wish there were more believers willing to post at SC and other skeptics' boards, and that we were made more welcome at the ones they run. And I wish there were more believers I could talk to productively IRL.

I don't think that worthwhile discussion is possible unless both sides concede they could possibly be wrong. I freely admit that I cannot prove that gods don't exist; I merely have no reason to believe in one and think the god concepts presented are too illogical and incoherent to be real.

I have yet to meet a believer willing to concede that he could be wrong about the existence of his god. Some of them claim to "feel his presence" and silly shit like that.

[Jobar]

I've known a very few believers that copped to being agnostic theists; they admitted they could not know for sure the god of their belief existed, but they believed anyway. AKA 'fideism', belief by pure faith, without claiming knowledge. That sort can be pretty hard to argue with, but are more likeable and easier to interact with, in my experience. Pity there's so few of them.

[adampjr]

[quote=""Jobar""]I've known a very few believers that copped to being agnostic theists; they admitted they could not know for sure the god of their belief existed, but they believed anyway. AKA 'fideism', belief by pure faith, without claiming knowledge. That sort can be pretty hard to argue with, but are more likeable and easier to interact with, in my experience. Pity there's so few of them.[/quote]

This has been me for a good while. Slowly, the acceptance of pure faith as a reason for belief has eroded over time.

[Jackrabbit]

It's always amused me that religious faith exists at all. For millennia, "faith" has been promoted as a virtue for the simple reason that the people trying to push religion had no other choice. They had no actual evidence of what they claimed, so they created the fiction that blind faith was "good" and would be "rewarded" by a dubious god not actually capable of doing anything.

If blind faith is a good thing, why don't they use it when buying a house or car? Or any other business transactions?

Contracts? Consumer protection? Who needs that shit? Just have faith that you will get what you paid for.

It's claimed that goddy-poo is promising things in return for this faith. But the person saying that is just a guy, like the used car salesman. So the salesman should be believed just like the preacher man.

Non-blind faith is fine. I have faith the sun will come up tomorrow, because I've seen it happen nearly 67 X 365 times. I have faith that family members love me because they behave as if they do.

[DMB]

Well some important mullah admitted that without the punishments for apostasy, Islam would probably cease to exist.

I, of course, would see that as a happy outcome, but I suppose Allah would be cross.

[Jackrabbit]

Amazing that he would admit that. Too bad those people can't figure out that threats of hell are not relevant if your daily life is already hell. If it wasn't, why would people want to leave?

If everybody dropped the horseshit all at once, there would be no one to kill you for leaving.

But alas, the religious leaders would have to give up their artificially-created power and no way would they do that. Just like the totally irrelevant RCC hierarchy.

[Jackrabbit]

[quote=""Jackrabbit""]

though I do like your 'Force be with you' reply.

I used it again today. The girl at Whataburger was too startled to respond the first time, but today she said "It is, thanks."

Much more fun when we are simply exchanging different forms of silliness.[/QUOTE]
Forgot to mention: on the other end of the spectrum, a couple of years ago I had a run-in with a carhop at Sonic. She gave me the blessed day crap and I said I'd like to go for five minutes without religion in my face. She got all huffy about it and inexplicably said it wasn't about religion.

"Of course it is, blessing has no meaning outside of religion."

"I'm not going to argue with you and you aren't going to make me deny my god!" "

"Who said anything about denying? Jabber about him all you want, just not to me."

"You're going to hell!"

That was a little much, so I complained to the manager. I never saw her again. I don't know if she was fired, or quit in a huff after a reprimand, or they just kept her away from me. (I have a yellow Mustang convertible, always park in the same stall, and have been going there at least twice a week for 18 years. So they kinda know me. )

[Jobar]

I had an encounter with a Christian today- the optometrist who did the measurements for my cataract surgery, which was done on my left eye (by a different doctor) on Monday.

He told me that I should go home and pray about what course I should take, as to when I have the right eye done.

When I first had the optical measurements done for my left eye, about three weeks ago, he had made a similar remark about praying for the success of my surgery. I smiled and told him I was an atheist, and would cheerfully trust in the expertise of his partner the surgeon, and the high success rate of this particular surgery.

Aside from his religious interjections, I rather like the fellow, and his advice seems good. I will be going back to him in about 3 more weeks, to have the completed surgery on my left eye checked out, the measurements taken for my right eye, and set up the appointment for the surgery on it. But if he mentions praying again, I will probably make some remark on the statistical failure rate of prayer in relation to medical procedures...

[Ozymandias]

[quote=""Jackrabbit""]
Forgot to mention: on the other end of the spectrum, a couple of years ago I had a run-in with a carhop at Sonic. [/quote]

Yes, that story does make it clear that you are a little bit on "the spectrum".

[Jackrabbit]

[quote=""Ozymandias""]

Forgot to mention: on the other end of the spectrum, a couple of years ago I had a run-in with a carhop at Sonic.

Yes, that story does make it clear that you are a little bit on "the spectrum".[/QUOTE]
Me personally? I meant the encounter. I really haven't had too many problems with carhops at Sonic and when I did, they didn't react that strongly.

In any case, the new approach seems to work better, so I will continue trying to use it.

Of course, the problem would go away completely if they would lay off the jeebus shit. In general, younger people are dropping it, but the carhops tend to be young enough that they are still bludgeoned with it by their parents and haven't begun to think for themselves yet.

[sohy]

[quote=""Jobar""]I had an encounter with a Christian today- the optometrist who did the measurements for my cataract surgery, which was done on my left eye (by a different doctor) on Monday.

He told me that I should go home and pray about what course I should take, as to when I have the right eye done.

When I first had the optical measurements done for my left eye, about three weeks ago, he had made a similar remark about praying for the success of my surgery. I smiled and told him I was an atheist, and would cheerfully trust in the expertise of his partner the surgeon, and the high success rate of this particular surgery.

Aside from his religious interjections, I rather like the fellow, and his advice seems good. I will be going back to him in about 3 more weeks, to have the completed surgery on my left eye checked out, the measurements taken for my right eye, and set up the appointment for the surgery on it. But if he mentions praying again, I will probably make some remark on the statistical failure rate of prayer in relation to medical procedures...[/quote]

Libby, who you know, and I both have met some very nice Christian doctors that do a lot of free mission work. I, as you know, am not particularly anti-religion. My former doctor, who is also an atheist, told me about a wonderful and competent orthopedic surgeon, but she warned me that he's also deeply religious and might want to pray over me.

To sum up things at work: The manager was sick over the weekend and went to the ER. She has ulcers and was given some medications to help. Maybe Jesus told her to go to the ER. Anyway, we still have a very good working relationship and I kind of doubt that religion will be brought up again around me.

[sohy]

I hope nobody minds if I use this thread to vent my tiny Jesusland encounters. Today, at the senior center I was standing near a group of women that were all excited because, "Praise Jesus" a friend of theirs was doing well after experiencing a cerebral hemorrhage, or as they called it, "a brain bleed."

They went on and on about how wonderful Jesus was, how he works in mysterious ways, etc. etc. Of course there are quite a few people that have a complete recovery from such things, so I wonder how Jesus decides which ones to heal, which ones to kill and which ones to leave with horrible disabilities.

The other thing is that these same women had a little prayer pow wow about two months ago for a woman that had cancer. The woman in question died three weeks later. I guess it much have been god's will for this very active, upbeat woman to die. Yes. No matter the outcome Jesus always knows best and I just don't seem to understand how that works.

That's all the Jesusizing I heard for today. And yes. I did make up that word.

[Jackrabbit]

Yeah, it never ceases to amaze me how they still claim "prayer works" after all these centuries. When you look at the outcomes, the success rate for praying to god/jeebus is no different from praying to a fire hydrant. Or a jug of milk, as suggested in a youtube video from years ago.

That "god's will" shit is especially ludicrous. They are essentially admitting that goddy-poo didn't think the person was worth saving. I really wish the dickweeds would think about what they are saying.

It's basically confirmation bias. They cheer the "successes" and disregard the failures.

[Tharmas]

[quote=""Jackrabbit""]
It's basically confirmation bias. They cheer the "successes" and disregard the failures.[/quote]

Exactly. The one I hear around here is "Prayer works! It's just that sometimes the answer is 'No'." In other words, even when it doesn't work, it still works. You just can't argue with such folks!

[Tubby]

[quote=""Tharmas""]
Exactly. The one I hear around here is "Prayer works! It's just that sometimes the answer is 'No'." In other words, even when it doesn't work, it still works. You just can't argue with such folks![/quote]

It's instructive to quote Mark 11:24 to a Christian and ask how it can be squared with real-world experience. "Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them."

[Jackrabbit]

[quote=""Tubby""]

Exactly. The one I hear around here is "Prayer works! It's just that sometimes the answer is 'No'." In other words, even when it doesn't work, it still works. You just can't argue with such folks!

It's instructive to quote Mark 11:24 to a Christian and ask how it can be squared with real-world experience. "Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them."
[/QUOTE]
Trivial to "defeat" in jeebus-speak. They will just say you didn't really believe you would receive them. Goddy-poo's failures are always your fault, you see. Or because of "sin". Or Satan.

Thing is, my mom did believe, for all the good it did her. She prayed nonstop after my dad got Alzheimer's. But he still didn't know who she was.

[Hermit]

[quote=""Tubby""]

Exactly. The one I hear around here is "Prayer works! It's just that sometimes the answer is 'No'." In other words, even when it doesn't work, it still works. You just can't argue with such folks!

It's instructive to quote Mark 11:24 to a Christian and ask how it can be squared with real-world experience. "Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them."
[/QUOTE]
There must have been a quarter million men, women, children and babies praying that god kill them by blessing them with a tsunami in 2004. If so, the prayer worked.

[Jackrabbit]

The existence of such events pretty much proves that if there is a god, he doesn't give a shit about man. No amount of "sin" or disbelief justifies that.

[Hermit]

[quote=""Jackrabbit""]The existence of such events pretty much proves that if there is a god, he doesn't give a shit about man. No amount of "sin" or disbelief justifies that.[/quote]
My thought exactly. Especially in regard to the thousands of babies killed by that catastrophe.

[DMB]

Jackrabbit, I think you might find this interesting. (BTW I love the blogger's name, "Godless in Dixie".)

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/godlessind ... -atheists/

[sohy]

Thank you DMB. I enjoyed reading that and my answers would have been similar. Fortunately, there are a lot of us godless folks in Dixie. In fact, some of them are my best friends. There are quite a few right in my own neighborhood, too. If you don't out yourself, you may miss out on making some wonderful godless friends.

[Jobar]

I liked that blog, too. In fact, I think I'll re-post his questions in its own thread, and give my own responses.

(Here.)

[Jackrabbit]

[quote=""sohy""]Thank you DMB. I enjoyed reading that and my answers would have been similar. Fortunately, there are a lot of us godless folks in Dixie. In fact, some of them are my best friends. There are quite a few right in my own neighborhood, too. If you don't out yourself, you may miss out on making some wonderful godless friends.[/quote]
One way to avoid the need of outing at all is to connect with atheist groups via meetup or some other online mechanism, so there's really nothing to out. Everybody in the group already knows that everybody else is an atheist.

And DMB, thanks for the link. I should have said so earlier, since it was directed to me.

[sohy]

[quote=""Jackrabbit""]

Thank you DMB. I enjoyed reading that and my answers would have been similar. Fortunately, there are a lot of us godless folks in Dixie. In fact, some of them are my best friends. There are quite a few right in my own neighborhood, too. If you don't out yourself, you may miss out on making some wonderful godless friends.

One way to avoid the need of outing at all is to connect with atheist groups via meetup or some other online mechanism, so there's really nothing to out. Everybody in the group already knows that everybody else is an atheist.

And DMB, thanks for the link. I should have said so earlier, since it was directed to me.[/QUOTE]

Yes. I do that as well. But, I have to admit, I have a lot of fun by outing myself.

[Hermit]

In Australia we don't out ourselves as atheists. We just say what we are when the occasion arises. In a country where one of our Prime Ministers made no bones about being an atheist there is obviously no stigma attached as there seems to be in very much of the USA.