Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?
https://www.google.ca/search?source=hp& ... CgTyqsYAOA
Fraud is a broad term that refers to a variety of offenses involving dishonesty or "fraudulent acts". In essence, fraud is the intentional deception of a person or entity by another made for monetary or personal gain. Fraud offenses always include some sort of false statement, misrepresentation, or deceitful conduct.
Most governments and countries have fraud laws of some kinds. They generally interfere with religious fraudsters only when physical harm is being done to our gullible citizens yet ignore the monetary theft that the fraudsters fleece from their victims. Prosperity ministries are the most flagrant of these immoral religions, but all religions based on demonstrable lies would be included in this question.
Our governments are quite good at acting against obvious fraudsters yet seem reluctant to protect our more gullible citizens when it comes down to religions.
Religions, to me, get a free pass to lie and steal all they can from victims, especially the older citizens even when governments know about the fraud.
I begin to see the inaction of governments on these religious fraudsters as a dereliction of duty.
Do you?
Regards
DL
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Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?
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Greatest I am
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Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?
God is a cosmic consciousness .
Telepathy the key.
Our next evolution. No choice.
Telepathy the key.
Our next evolution. No choice.
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Greatest I am
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In the US, that 'wall of separation between church and state' has the unfortunate effect of protecting all but the most blatant frauds in religious clothing, I think.
Jesus is quoted as saying 'Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's, and unto God that which is God's.' But deciding which is which has always been a serious problem; would a strict interpretation of 'what is Caesar's' include all money and other forms of real wealth? Or on the other hand, since God supposedly created the world and all that's in it, wouldn't that imply that *everything* belongs to God?
Defining 'fraud' is a problem here, too. How do we decide what benefit a person should get from their donations to religious organizations, since there aren't any material goods or services exchanged?
I'm afraid that there's never going to be easy answers to any of those questions. Of course as an atheist and skeptic, I could make a good argument that *all* religions are frauds; but of course I know I'm one of a very small minority that thinks so.
Jesus is quoted as saying 'Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's, and unto God that which is God's.' But deciding which is which has always been a serious problem; would a strict interpretation of 'what is Caesar's' include all money and other forms of real wealth? Or on the other hand, since God supposedly created the world and all that's in it, wouldn't that imply that *everything* belongs to God?
Defining 'fraud' is a problem here, too. How do we decide what benefit a person should get from their donations to religious organizations, since there aren't any material goods or services exchanged?
I'm afraid that there's never going to be easy answers to any of those questions. Of course as an atheist and skeptic, I could make a good argument that *all* religions are frauds; but of course I know I'm one of a very small minority that thinks so.
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Greatest I am
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[quote=""Jobar""]In the US, that 'wall of separation between church and state' has the unfortunate effect of protecting all but the most blatant frauds in religious clothing, I think.
Jesus is quoted as saying 'Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's, and unto God that which is God's.' But deciding which is which has always been a serious problem; would a strict interpretation of 'what is Caesar's' include all money and other forms of real wealth? Or on the other hand, since God supposedly created the world and all that's in it, wouldn't that imply that *everything* belongs to God?
Defining 'fraud' is a problem here, too. How do we decide what benefit a person should get from their donations to religious organizations, since there aren't any material goods or services exchanged?
I'm afraid that there's never going to be easy answers to any of those questions. Of course as an atheist and skeptic, I could make a good argument that *all* religions are frauds; but of course I know I'm one of a very small minority that thinks so.[/quote]
Your minority is growing daily, especially since the religious have fewer and fewer talking points and even the religious hierarchies are bitching about the poor quality of their adherents and apologists.
Even I have noticed the decline in religious participation in my travels.
I do not think, thanks to the I.D. trial, that fraud would be hard to prove.
We just have to start enforcing the fraud laws based on the known lies of the various religions.
Regards
DL
Jesus is quoted as saying 'Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's, and unto God that which is God's.' But deciding which is which has always been a serious problem; would a strict interpretation of 'what is Caesar's' include all money and other forms of real wealth? Or on the other hand, since God supposedly created the world and all that's in it, wouldn't that imply that *everything* belongs to God?
Defining 'fraud' is a problem here, too. How do we decide what benefit a person should get from their donations to religious organizations, since there aren't any material goods or services exchanged?
I'm afraid that there's never going to be easy answers to any of those questions. Of course as an atheist and skeptic, I could make a good argument that *all* religions are frauds; but of course I know I'm one of a very small minority that thinks so.[/quote]
Your minority is growing daily, especially since the religious have fewer and fewer talking points and even the religious hierarchies are bitching about the poor quality of their adherents and apologists.
Even I have noticed the decline in religious participation in my travels.
I do not think, thanks to the I.D. trial, that fraud would be hard to prove.
We just have to start enforcing the fraud laws based on the known lies of the various religions.
Regards
DL
God is a cosmic consciousness .
Telepathy the key.
Our next evolution. No choice.
Telepathy the key.
Our next evolution. No choice.
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Greatest I am
- Posts: 1939
- Joined: Mon Sep 14, 2009 5:35 pm
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Greatest I am
- Posts: 1939
- Joined: Mon Sep 14, 2009 5:35 pm
What does "regulate" mean?
You can't take a religious body to court for telling blatant lies about the age of the world, or the creation of species, or parthenogenesis.
Law-courts are just for obtaining money through deception or misrepresentation.
Churches can tell all the lies they want, as long as the money they receive is "donation" - given 'voluntarily', for no tangible return. It's not a contract; the faithful are promised eternal life, under certain conditions, where neither the fulfillment of the stipulated conditions nor the final payout can be empirically tested.
The law might have a better chance with the charge of extortion or blackmail.
Best of all: just tax all their income, property and profits.
You can't take a religious body to court for telling blatant lies about the age of the world, or the creation of species, or parthenogenesis.
Law-courts are just for obtaining money through deception or misrepresentation.
Churches can tell all the lies they want, as long as the money they receive is "donation" - given 'voluntarily', for no tangible return. It's not a contract; the faithful are promised eternal life, under certain conditions, where neither the fulfillment of the stipulated conditions nor the final payout can be empirically tested.
The law might have a better chance with the charge of extortion or blackmail.
Best of all: just tax all their income, property and profits.
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Greatest I am
- Posts: 1939
- Joined: Mon Sep 14, 2009 5:35 pm
[quote=""Peanut""]What does "regulate" mean?
You can't take a religious body to court for telling blatant lies about the age of the world, or the creation of species, or parthenogenesis.
Law-courts are just for obtaining money through deception or misrepresentation.
Churches can tell all the lies they want, as long as the money they receive is "donation" - given 'voluntarily', for no tangible return. It's not a contract; the faithful are promised eternal life, under certain conditions, where neither the fulfillment of the stipulated conditions nor the final payout can be empirically tested.
The law might have a better chance with the charge of extortion or blackmail.
Best of all: just tax all their income, property and profits.[/quote]
I agree with your last.
Regulate means just that. We now do that through the tax code as well as laws like the U.S. just passed against polygamy, to bring Mormons to heel.
Tell me, do you see the cash these children will pay to their lying clergy as a voluntary decision or one forced onto them by the brainwashing they have been subjected to?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LACyLTsH4ac
"the faithful are promised eternal life, under certain conditions,"
Correct. A promise that is an outright lie designed to have the victim part with his cash.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=668D_MeV1nY
Regards
DL
You can't take a religious body to court for telling blatant lies about the age of the world, or the creation of species, or parthenogenesis.
Law-courts are just for obtaining money through deception or misrepresentation.
Churches can tell all the lies they want, as long as the money they receive is "donation" - given 'voluntarily', for no tangible return. It's not a contract; the faithful are promised eternal life, under certain conditions, where neither the fulfillment of the stipulated conditions nor the final payout can be empirically tested.
The law might have a better chance with the charge of extortion or blackmail.
Best of all: just tax all their income, property and profits.[/quote]
I agree with your last.
Regulate means just that. We now do that through the tax code as well as laws like the U.S. just passed against polygamy, to bring Mormons to heel.
Tell me, do you see the cash these children will pay to their lying clergy as a voluntary decision or one forced onto them by the brainwashing they have been subjected to?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LACyLTsH4ac
"the faithful are promised eternal life, under certain conditions,"
Correct. A promise that is an outright lie designed to have the victim part with his cash.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=668D_MeV1nY
Regards
DL
God is a cosmic consciousness .
Telepathy the key.
Our next evolution. No choice.
Telepathy the key.
Our next evolution. No choice.
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Roo St. Gallus
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Greatest I am
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- Joined: Mon Sep 14, 2009 5:35 pm
[quote=""Roo St. Gallus""]Yeah...Start with the Gnostics; they should know it's coming.[/quote]
What does a creed that perpetually seeks knowledge and wisdom have to lie about? It has no need to lie.
What lie do you see, if you know anything of that religion?
Perhaps you should educate yourself before looking uninformed again.
The only good Christian is a Gnostic Christian. True or false?
A nutshell view of Gnostic Christianity is expressed in the first two links and the third shows the attitude and result of Christian and Gnostic Christian interaction. I should point out that Gnostic Christianity does not hold to any supernatural belief, although I know that the literature, mostly written by those who won the God wars, wants to show that we do. Our myths have a lot of supernatural entities but they are myths, not reality.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alRNbes ... r_embedded
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oR02cia ... =PLCBF574D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ptNcSYo7k4
I heard the saying in the title of this O. P. some time ago and after looking at the moral aspects of both ideologies/ theologies, --- I think that statement to be true.
Do you?
Regards
DL
What does a creed that perpetually seeks knowledge and wisdom have to lie about? It has no need to lie.
What lie do you see, if you know anything of that religion?
Perhaps you should educate yourself before looking uninformed again.
The only good Christian is a Gnostic Christian. True or false?
A nutshell view of Gnostic Christianity is expressed in the first two links and the third shows the attitude and result of Christian and Gnostic Christian interaction. I should point out that Gnostic Christianity does not hold to any supernatural belief, although I know that the literature, mostly written by those who won the God wars, wants to show that we do. Our myths have a lot of supernatural entities but they are myths, not reality.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alRNbes ... r_embedded
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oR02cia ... =PLCBF574D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ptNcSYo7k4
I heard the saying in the title of this O. P. some time ago and after looking at the moral aspects of both ideologies/ theologies, --- I think that statement to be true.
Do you?
Regards
DL
God is a cosmic consciousness .
Telepathy the key.
Our next evolution. No choice.
Telepathy the key.
Our next evolution. No choice.
-
Greatest I am
- Posts: 1939
- Joined: Mon Sep 14, 2009 5:35 pm
[quote=""Shake""]The problem, at least in the States, is it's probably much harder to do once you've given a cult the status of 'religion'. Scientology is definitely a fraudulent organization, but it's been allowed to grow rather powerful and has the financial means to fight back.[/quote]
I do not see it as hard at all as we already have decent fraud laws that we could use if we cared about those who are victims of such frauds.
I do not like the constitution but I doubt that we would exceed the limits to free speech that it advocates.
Harm is tied now to freedom of speech and those standards should be looked at to not include allowing fraudsters to operate openly and without a worry of government intervention.
Regards
DL
I do not see it as hard at all as we already have decent fraud laws that we could use if we cared about those who are victims of such frauds.
I do not like the constitution but I doubt that we would exceed the limits to free speech that it advocates.
Harm is tied now to freedom of speech and those standards should be looked at to not include allowing fraudsters to operate openly and without a worry of government intervention.
Regards
DL
God is a cosmic consciousness .
Telepathy the key.
Our next evolution. No choice.
Telepathy the key.
Our next evolution. No choice.